SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
On New Year's Eve, the Republican-led House Judiciary Committee released footage of closed-door testimony from the man at the center of the Justice Department's investigations into President Trump. Former Special Counsel Jack Smith led two probes - one focused on Trump's attempt to overthrow the 2020 election results, which culminated in the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, the second on Trump's handling of classified documents after leaving the White House and his alleged refusal to turn them back over to the government.
The Department of Justice dropped both cases once Trump won another term, and Smith resigned in the final weeks of President Biden's tenure. But in the newly released footage, Smith stood by his work and defended his investigations. NPR reporter Luke Garrett has been combing through the nearly 300 pages of testimony and joins me now to talk it through. Hey, Luke.
LUKE GARRETT, BYLINE: Hello, Scott.
DETROW: So, Luke, in 2024, these cases were an enormous news story. I hosted an entire podcast about them. And now, a year into Trump's second term, they really feel like ancient history. So let's start with this. Remind us why Jack Smith found himself on Capitol Hill to begin with.
GARRETT: Right. So his cases are dead in Trump's DOJ. But back in October, the Senate Judiciary Committee released records showing that Smith's team analyzed the phone records of some GOP lawmakers back in 2021. This caused outrage among Republicans, many of whom claimed this was further proof that the Biden administration used the DOJ to attack the GOP and Trump for political purposes. So in early December, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan, subpoenaed Smith to testify behind closed doors. Now, Jordan did this even though Smith offered to do a public hearing on Capitol Hill. Ultimately, Smith testified privately on December 17, and now we have the transcripts.
DETROW: So you've been reading them all, you've been watching the video. What have you learned?
GARRETT: That's right. So a few things. But to start, it's worth noting here how rare it is to hear directly from Smith. He, you know, really didn't give a ton of public statements or talk to the press. So it's notable that he gave a full-throated defense of his first case against Trump for attempting to overthrow the 2020 election. Let's take a listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
JACK SMITH: President Trump was by a large measure the most culpable and most responsible person in this conspiracy.
GARRETT: And Smith went on to dispute claims that his investigation and conclusions were political.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SMITH: I entirely disagree with any characterization that our work was in any way meant to hamper him in the presidential election.
GARRETT: And, Scott, during this deposition, Smith repeatedly said he believed the evidence gathered against Trump in this 2020 election case would have led to a conviction.
DETROW: Neither of these cases got close to an actual trial for a wide variety of reasons, but I'm curious - did Smith say why he believed that?
GARRETT: Well, not exactly on the why part, but he did say how he would have worked towards a conviction. Here's Smith again.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SMITH: Our case was built on, frankly, Republicans who put their allegiance to the country before the party.
GARRETT: He cited a Republican Pennsylvania elector who told investigators that he believed Trump was trying to overthrow the election and that it was illegal. Smith also pointed to former Vice President Mike Pence as a cooperative Republican in this case against Trump. Now, interestingly, when asked if he would have called Steve Bannon, Roger Stone or Peter Navarro as witnesses in the case against Trump, Smith said, no because he considered them, quote, "highly uncooperative."
DETROW: You mentioned that one of the reasons that House Republicans wanted to have this hearing was the fact that Smith's team had tried to access their phone records. Did that come up in this testimony?
GARRETT: Yes, it did. Smith confirmed that his team did get phone records of some GOP senators, but they were only timestamps of the calls in and around the January 6 attack and not the contents of the call itself. He defended his team's seizing of these records and laid blame on Trump's actions which prompted the entire investigation.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
SMITH: Donald Trump directed his coconspirators to call these people to further delay the proceedings. He chose to do that. If Donald Trump had chosen to call a number of Democratic senators, we would have got toll records for a number of Democratic senators.
GARRETT: Now, Scott, the analysis of phone toll records is a common investigative tactic, but there are ongoing debates about whether the DOJ should be able to use this tactic against a sitting member of Congress.
DETROW: The January 6 case and the election case was such a big deal that hung over U.S. politics, but many legal analysts thought that the case about classified documents was actually the stronger legal case. I'm curious what Smith said about that case.
GARRETT: So here, we didn't learn much. Smith was largely mum on this investigation, citing a federal judge's order barring him from really disclosing details on this case. Though Smith did make a point in saying he was open to sharing more details about this classified documents case, he just can't do it now, legally.
DETROW: Luke Garrett, thank you so much.
GARRETT: You bet. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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