JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
In 2024, President Trump found success on the campaign trail by appearing on countless long-form interview podcasts hosted by comedians, usually male with big followings. Now, other politicians who are considering a bid for higher office are setting their sights on podcasts as well. NPR's Stephen Fowler is here with more. Hi.
STEPHEN FOWLER, BYLINE: Hey there.
SUMMERS: So Stephen, 2025, not a major election year, so a whole lot of people are just checked out of politics. So what are these politicians talking about on all these podcasts?
FOWLER: Well, I've been listening to hours and hours of these podcasts lately to get a sense of when and how a politician makes it on and what ends up breaking through. Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna from California has been a prolific podcast guest on a whole range of shows. He sat down last month with popular podcaster Theo Von and explained why he was there.
(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "THIS PAST WEEKEND")
RO KHANNA: I'm not saying this to flatter you. A lot of times, you'll ask questions, and they're, like, deeper and smarter than some of the Sunday talk show hosts. And I think it's 'cause you actually talk to real people. And it's sort of like, well, how does this affect my buddy? How does this affect real people?
FOWLER: This was also after he introduced a War Powers Resolution in the House to limit military action in Iran, along with Republican Thomas Massie of Kentucky, who coincidentally was on the very next episode with Von. A few other ones that stand out recently include Texas Democratic state lawmaker James Talarico with Joe Rogan and California Governor Gavin Newsom, who also has his own podcast, of course, who talked with former Navy SEAL Shawn Ryan.
SUMMERS: I have to say, Stephen, the podcasts that you're talking about, they don't sound inherently political in nature. A lot of them are more comedic. How does that affect the tone and tenor of these conversations?
FOWLER: They are certainly less politically focused than, say, the NPR Politics Podcast or "Meet The Press," but there's still discussions about family upbringings, backgrounds, news of the day and those politicians' political views. But it's for a different audience, one that prefers a conversation more than buzzwords and short soundbites and questions that are more interrogatory in nature. That does lead to a bit more friendly common ground than outrage.
Here's a case in point. Gavin Newsom, Democratic governor of California. He spent four hours talking with Shawn Ryan, the former Navy SEAL whose show is catered towards military veterans and conservatives. And after those four hours of talk about gun rights and COVID lockdowns and California politics, it ended like this.
(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "THE SHAWN RYAN SHOW")
SHAWN RYAN: Well, Gavin...
GAVIN NEWSOM: Good to see you.
RYAN: ...Like I said, I really appreciate you coming. And just being totally honest...
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
RYAN: ...A lot of my opinions about you have changed, and...
NEWSOM: Oh, that's nice (ph).
RYAN: ...Thank you for coming.
NEWSOM: I'm grateful to you, man. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
FOWLER: It's important to remember the function of these sit-downs. These are not debates or interviews done with journalistic purposes in mind, so there's usually little pushback to someone's opinion or perspective. Here's another example. Popular Trump-friendly podcasters called the Nelk Boys did an hour-long interview with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recently. They opened the episode by saying they were not prepared to interview someone like this. And after it went live, many agreed that they did not do a great job with it.
SUMMERS: OK, so with Trump's success and more politicians gravitating towards these long-form conversations with hosts that are not, like, traditional journalists, should we expect that making the rounds on a few big shows will be a prerequisite for national candidates moving forward?
FOWLER: That's a question I put to Eric Wilson. He's the executive director of the Center for Campaign Innovation, a Republican digital strategist and someone with a lot of experience with how their candidates get their message out. He says do more podcasts is the wrong takeaway for 2024.
ERIC WILSON: The takeaway is, like, you've got to be willing to say something and have a message and be willing to do things that are going to break through to the people who are news-avoiders.
FOWLER: Basically, being able to speak for hours about your backstory and beliefs isn't going to be mandatory to win an election, but he said it is likely to change the landscape of who's considered successful on the national stage. I mean, think about the Lincoln-Douglas debates and how they helped Abraham Lincoln, how John F. Kennedy was optimized for television debates and the current Trump era is more optimized for cable news. So we could see the podcast politics be the future.
SUMMERS: NPR's Stephen Fowler, thanks so much.
FOWLER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
